MSU Extension MI Ag Ideas to Grow With

- Welcome to this addition of "MI AG Ideas." My name's Charles Gould. I'm with Michigan State University Extension. I'm housed in Ottawa County. I have... responsibility for bioenergy across the state of Michigan. A lot of my work, right now, is really focused at the nexus of solar and agriculture, meaning that... we need to find ways to incorporate agriculture into solar projects that are going in around the state. So we're gonna talk about grazing today. Thursday, I'm talking about Pollinator Habitat, and tomorrow I'll be talking about what every Michigan citizen needs to know about solar projects. Encourage you to participate in that, if your time allows, that's at two o'clock using the same link. There's a lot of misinformation that is being dispensed by various groups around the state. So my attempt is to try to put a research-based approach to address some of the concerns and issues, and really, mistruths, that are being spread out there. So, with that, let's go ahead and get started. So I wanna just to be sure that you know that Michigan State University Extension offers all their programs to all, everyone, regardless of race and color, national origin, sex, gender, gender identity, religion, age, height, weight, disability, political beliefs, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, or veteran status. Our programs are open to all and we encourage everyone to participate in them. So what is Solar Grazing and how does it work? That's what we're gonna do the deep dive into today. And I wanna start with this concept of "Dual Use," because that's really foundational to what we need to have happen here in this state and across the United States. So when we talk about "Dual Use," we're really talking about how we improve the landscape in terms of incorporating agriculture into a solar, into a solar project. And we have, "we," meaning a group of us from Michigan State University and Michigan State University Extension. The University of Michigan got together, we wrote a guidebook for local township officials. And we have taken the liberty to define "Dual Use" as a solar energy system that uses one or more of the following management and conservation practices, Grazing and Forage, Pollinator Habitat, Conservation Cover, and Agrivoltaics. So today we're just going to cover the Grazing and Forage, the Pollinator Habitat, as I mentioned, will be covered in depth on Thursday, and then Conservation Cover and Agrivoltaics, as well as grazing and pollinator habitat, will be covered tomorrow in the presentation I'll give it two o'clock. So what are we talking about here with "Solar Grazing?" Well, it's a method of vegetation control on a solar site using grazing livestock. So on the left we've got sheep, and on the right we have cattle. I was in Massachusetts this summer, this past summer, and this picture in the upper right-hand corner was taken at a site that is using cattle to graze. Now there's different management styles here. On the left, you can see that the sheep fit underneath the typical, I would say, typical solar array that are, you know, 36 inches or so above the soil surface. Whereas the cattle on the right, the solar modules were in the air, probably, a good nine, nine feet or so. The project on the right, you can see the concrete, or the picture on the right, you can see the concrete there, This was just part of their management, their management style. You know, a farmer wouldn't necessarily have to put a concrete pole barn up or any kind of barn structure, for that matter, it's just the way that they chose to do that. But the cattle will go out and graze, and they've done, they did a very nice job of keeping the vegetation down just as sheep will. Sheep are probably the most common. Katahdins and dorpers, dorpers and other hair sheep are typically selected for these solar grazing projects because they're low maintenance, they're parasite resistant and they shed, so you don't need to go out and shear. And the fact that they're a smaller breed, also, well, they're smaller than wool sheep breeds, so that also lends itself to these type, these solar projects. I wanted to get to goats here. Goats have, unfortunately, got a bad wrap because they climb. But goats will, there are breeds of goats that don't climb. And for goats to make inroads into solar projects, probably is gonna take a demonstration project where goats are put in in a small scale and observed, and so you can demonstrate that they don't, you know, that they don't climb. So there's certainly an option. They'll eat a lot of, they'll eat some things that sheep won't eat, but sheep are the safe bet right now, and that's where the industry is really going. So solar companies contract with the local sheep farmers move the sheep onto the site in the spring. The sheep producer cares for them during the grazing season and moves them off the site for the winter. The two pictures that you see there are from a 14 acre site in Ionia County, just south of Herbruck's Poultry Farm. So there were two sheep producers who lived about a half a mile from the site who went in together. The rule of thumb right now is three used per acre. So they combine their flocks, put them in this site, and on the left is the watering trough, on the right is the mineral, the mineral bin, and they were very successful in keeping the weeds, in reality, down. The sheep did a very nice job with that. We had an evening... grazing... field day there. And the site really, they didn't come in and really plant anything there. It was lamb's quarter and foxtail and the sheep did a really nice job of controlling both of those weeds. So the shepherd provides the water and the minerals, but in this case, Herbrucks was providing the water, and I think what we're gonna see in the future is that a lot of solar developers are gonna provide the water... as just a part of the solar project and their desire to entice sheep producers to come in and graze. But the sheep producer's gonna have to provide the, you know, the minerals and the management and really stay on top of the vegetation and make sure that it doesn't get overgrown. All right, so the picture on the right is the Herbruck site, and I wish that I had had presence of mind to take a picture when I was out there. This picture was taken three weeks after I was at this site, and the sheep hadn't, the sheep producers were using rotational grazing, and so the sheep just hadn't got here yet. But the lamb's quarter was at up to my waist. And the foxtail was at least mid-calf, I would, I would say. And you can see the picture on the right, that the sheep came in, they took the leaves off the lamb's quarter and they just kind of smashed down the stems that were left. And you can see here that there's a clear, you know, clear aisle there underneath the solar array. The picture on the left has to do with, that's the beef operation... that was grazing this large, I think it was a, I wanna say it's like 150 acre solar site that they were grazing. But I wanted to put that picture out there because of the fence. The nice thing about solar projects is that when they go in, they have really good perimeter fencing. And this is just an example. Perimeter fencing is gonna, you know, it's gonna be, it's gonna vary from location to the location, but it's gonna be designed to keep things, keep animals out. So if it's designed to keep animals out, it's designed to keep animals in. And so, and you know, predators in particular. So, does solar grazing provide a meaningful opportunity for farmers? I would say, yes. In the years that I've been working in this area, it's a new industry and it's had growing pains, but the sheep producers that are in it are providing a meaningful service to the community and to the solar developers. So, you know, it helps maintain that rural landscape. That's one of the things that I've heard as I've talked with people in townships that, "You know, we wanna keep our rural landscape. "We wanna have that rural feeling." And this is one way to do that. It adds additional income streams to local farms, and where profit margins are really thin, and, you know, if we wanna sustain our livestock and sheep industry, this is one way to do that. And then, of course, to enhance the land stewardship, you know, manure and grazing, all is part of that natural ecosystem that helps with nutrient management and soil fertility and soil health. You know, all of those things go together. So why do sheep farmers participate in solar grazing? Well, the most common reason that I have been told by sheep producers who want to go into this is that all the land for grazing really is being utilized. And so what this does is, these solar projects offer opportunities for new grazing. And that can mean potentially that flocks can expand. That means, you know, a larger income stream into the farm. You know, there's opportunities that, that these solar projects provide. And then, of course, we've mentioned this already, that it's another income stream coming into the farm. And then, yeah, and that point about water and electricity has already been mentioned. Okay. And this third bullet point is the one that I wanted to address in particular. There's a lot of fear on the part of solar developers that somebody's gonna get electrocuted, and I guess that, you know, that's a concern and we can't deny that or discount that, I guess, but what I've seen over the years is that the installation of solar projects have become, they've really improved. And so the wiring is typically not exposed. They're in the trays behind the solar arrays. They're up, out of reach of animals. There's just less likely, it's less likely for someone or something to get electrocuted. So I really wanted to just emphasize that point that, you know, there's been enough solar grazing now, there's been enough people working around, in these sites and through these sites to know that if they're constructed correctly and if there's, you know, people are using common sense and we manage our herd or our flock in responsible ways, that we shouldn't have to worry about, you know, the chance of getting electric electrocuted. So, and then there's always the tax piece of this, that contrary to what you've heard, townships are going to collect taxes from these solar projects and those taxes will be used for the benefit of the citizens that live within that township. All right, so... I've got, I invited Matt and Samantha Craig to participate in this 'cause I wanted to have someone who's actually in the industry. I became acquainted with Samantha a number of years ago, been out to their farm. Very good producers. And I asked them to come and share some of their perspectives from a sheet producer point-of-view. So, Samantha, you got the floor. - [Samantha] Yeah, well I'll just have a few points to make and I'll see if Matt wants to add anything in, but from the producer's perspective, some of the things that you kind of have to take into account when you want a solar graze is that you're probably gonna need to update your farm insurance, the least of which is usually the contracts with the solar companies are gonna require a pretty, pretty good umbrella liability policy. Even if the sheep aren't gonna, expected it to do anything, it's still typically going to be required. When you're trying to decide whether or not to bid on a site, there's some different things to kind of take into account when you're doing a walk with the site manager. Determine your grazing readiness, and that kind of helps you decide what your pricing is going to be. The more amenities there are, the better the, you know, and the less costly it is for you to graze. 'Cause it is not just free grazing, it is not just free food for your sheep. You're providing a service to the solar company, the vegetation management. So, you know, the most grazing ready sites are ones that have some space, or adequate space, for kind of staging, handling the sheep, adequate room to get a trailer in and out. Smaller sites that can be difficult, especially if the sites kind of got a bunch of little sub locations, so you have to figure out how you're gonna move sheep across the road if there's roadways between fields of panels, things like that. Making sure that the fencing that they have decided upon is appropriate for livestock. 'Cause there's a few different types of common fencing on solar sites and some of them, some of them allow wildlife to pass through and some of them allow predators to pass through, depending on how they're kind of designed. So you have to kind of discuss with them, and the best time to talk with them about this is before they've actually even started construction. But making sure that, you know, the plan for the perimeter fencing and then any internal cross fencing on these, you know, larger 500,000 acre plus sites. You kind of gotta look at what your overall grazing plan is going to be and think of breaking down your potential internal fencing like that so that maybe you're not, maybe you don't have to spend as much on electric netting or something, your cross fencing. The water plan is a kind of a big one. That's kind of a key point a lot of people use when they're factoring and pricing, is what the water availability is. Whether or not they have to haul water on their truck to the sheep every day, or how accessible it is. Secure access, how you as a shepherd can access it. If you have to bring a vet on site, you know, or other emergency. If you have remote cameras set up so that you don't have to go every single day, but something happens and you can't go, you need to make sure that there's a plan in place for being able to have somebody go. Depending on the site and how remote it is, you might need to decide whether or not you need to have livestock guardians there and what kind. And that can be a whole nother discussion in itself. Any additional duties, whether or not they want to also, you know, pay you for string trimming, mowing for like official site visitors, things like that. That's some of the stuff to look at. And then the big one, you know, when you're kind of looking at it from a, as a sheep producer is, how many sheep you can run. You're stocking density. And that's, you know, really a largely, you know, based on what the nutritional value is, what they've planted there, what they agree to plant there. If they plant there before they even start construction, then you'll be able to start grazing the site sooner. It'll be, and Matt can talk a little bit better about that stuff, but, you know, basically, depending on what they've planted and where they've planted it and how they've planted it, you might need double or triple the number of sheep for a short period of time than you do the rest of the season. On a big site, maybe you don't have enough sheep and you have to kind of decide what your strategy is if you are going to try to overwinter as many sheep as you need for the site, or if you are gonna buy in the spring and sell in the fall and you have to decide what your, how that's whether that's going to pay off for you or not, because you have to kind of know what the market is here in Michigan, whichever your closest sale barn is, you gotta know what they're gonna want, which, you're not going to, whole other kind of can of worms there is knowing what you're gonna get for the sheep at the end of the season. And if you are going to graze lambs, then you're gonna need a lot more than three per acre. Typically, that's more of like a, industry kind of says nine per acre if you're doing lambs because they're just not as efficient when it comes to grazing. So, you know, you try it out. Typically it's, they seem to, you know, when we've done a lot of discussions on these on contracts, they do like to have their annual leases, but it's definitely safer, long-term, for the farmer if you can get, you know, three, five, you know, have a longer contract. That'll help you with any, anything that you might need to get as far as financing so that you can expand to do this. The better contract you can get than the better it is for you as a farmer. Got anything to add? Matt's shaking his head. - He doesn't have anything to add? - He'll answer questions if there's questions. - Okay. - He's native plant, he's been a shepherd for 15 years, so he's happy to answer questions but as far as like making the points. - Okay. I wanted to circle back though to a point that you made that is, seems to be repeated as I meet with solar developers. It seems that there's more and more solar developers as they start to develop their projects, that want, they want grazing and they're more willing to have the grazer, the sheep producer involved upfront. And I just can't underscore the fact, you know, that Samantha made, that getting up front, getting in on the ground floor as the planning is taking place, is gonna be the best way that you can ensure that you can have a successful grazing project. And there are some solar companies that are, are more amenable to to that. So you're just gonna have to ask questions and develop relationships of trust. I think that's kind of where we're at right now in, in terms of solar developers. They know that there are sheep producers out there with sheep and they want to bring them onto their sites, but they've not had any experience with working with sheep producers in our state. And then we have sheep producers who are very willing to go out and have got the skills and the ability, know how to rotational graze, have a grazing plan, they're ready to go... but just haven't had that experience, you know, with the solar developer. So what I'm hoping is that over the next, you know, six to 12 months, 'cause there's projects in the queue that are ready, that we can get sheep producers and solar developers talking to each other and get these things worked out so we can get projects on the ground. So, we are, it's, it's just, you know, trying to make that happen, as quickly and as efficiently as possible. All right, from a solar site operator's perspective, I'm just gonna go ahead and take this. I had hoped to have a solar developer on and was not able to get one, and perhaps there's some on the call, here, and if that's the case, I'd certainly welcome their perspective. But it's a, you know, I, part of my area of expertise is compost production, and I've worked with farmers for over 20 years on composting manure. And one of the things that keeps coming up time and time again is that the farmers, they don't account for the time that they put in in producing compost. And so they look at the neighbor down the road and what they're selling composts for and feel a need to match that. And in so doing, they price themselves eventually out of the market, and what I'm suggesting here is that know what your costs are when you go to a solar developer and don't apologize, you know? The solar developers is in it to make money. I mean, they've got their business, but so is raising sheep. It's you have a business and you've gotta be profitable or you're not sustainable. So from a solar site's operator's perspective, they should expect to pay a shepherd what is costs to mow. That's the bottom, that's the ground floor. You start there and you work up. They at least have to, they at least have to match that. So, the other thing too is, if a solar operator is expecting to have a well manicured golf-looking site, ain't gonna happen. Sheep will graze and it will look, it's gonna look like a graze site. The important thing though is to, is that there's none of the forage that's out there that grows over that bottom lip and shades that bottom row of solar modules out. And that can be done very effectively with sheep, but it's not gonna look like a mowed lawn. So arrange for the shepherd to have 24/7, 365 access. Gotta have that in order to access the sheep whenever they need to be cared for. Get a grazing plan. And Samantha talked about what that grazing plan entails, but from a operator's standpoint, you want to get that plan and make sure that it adequately manages vegetation. Agree who will fence off anything that should be, that would be in danger of being damaged by sheep. I still think that's less of a concern. We've come a long way, we understand, you know, what needs to be fenced off, what what doesn't need to be fenced off, and I think that's just less of a concern these days. So if a solar operator has a contractor on site, make sure that they meet with a shepherd and become familiar with who they are. And then, again, if that first year works out well, get into a long-term lease, that's gonna, you know, the solar company wants to manage costs. A long-term lease is gonna manage those costs and a sheep producer is gonna want that long-term arrangement because that helps with planning and farm management and equipment purchases and things like that, so. There's my contact information. And I would welcome emails, phone calls. You know, I'm willing to drive to your farm if it's necessary. I'd love to make a farm visit if you wanna invite me to come out. Want to thank our sponsors, AgriStrategies LLC. So that concludes the presentation here. All right, so DC asks, "Are there any provisions in typical solar contracts "to return land to its original agriculture usage "at the end of the solar project's productive life "or upon sale of the land?" I've seen a lot of these lease agreements, and the answer to that is, yes. Although the wording could be improved, but the intent is there. I think that the verbiage in the lease agreements could be improved, but yes, that's definitely the intent. But on on the other hand, I had an organic grower tell me that the reason that he was going in to, the reason he wanted a solar project on his land is because that was the easiest way for him to get, you know, the.... Oh, what do you call it, the length of time that was necessary for him to qualify is organic without the use of pesticides and things like that. I know there's a term for it and it's just not coming me. So, upon removal of the the solar array, he could go right into growing organic crops. And so he was bringing in income while his land was, you know, not in production. All right, Jay Turner asks, "How many years have she been grazed, "have sheep grazing the demo property pictured?" So I'm not sure which picture you were referring to. So I'm going to, I'm going to give you... Was it the Herbruck site that you were referring to? - [Woman] Yeah, the one that had the, you were saying, it showed the sort of dirt pathway underneath the solar panel. - Yeah. - [Woman] With the grass on, or grass or weeds, on either side. - Yep, so that was actually just one year. So what happened here, so that picture was taken last year. This year there's no sheep grazing there because Herbrucks just felt that sheep would bring unwanted pathogens onto the organic farm. So, we respected their wishes. So it's being mowed right now. - [Woman] Gotcha, thanks. - Okay. And let's see, "Are sheep interchangeable with goats?" Samantha, probably would say, no, but I would say that they would be if they were not climbing goats. Sam, you want to take that? - [Samantha] Yeah, I mean, if they weren't climbing, well it's not just a climbing, it's also the chewing and the extra investigation that goats like to do. So, I mean, depending on the temperament of the herd of goats, it's something that somebody could consider, but that's, you know, like you said earlier, probably gonna need to be demonstrated. - Yeah. - They're gonna need to show that they're not, you know, not likely to be a problem. But, you know, I mean there's a reason a goats, and goats are used heavily for prescribed grazing and you know, reducing fire fuel, you know, because they will eat a lot of different stuff. But on a solar site, to a large degree, you can control what's planted there. So, you know, the solar company, they can plant stuff that's appropriate, while still planting pollinators and things that both sheep will handle that also match any other goals they have with agrivoltaics. - Yeah. So I have a kind of a related question here, Sam, so why don't you just stay unmuted here. I've given Thad the ability to unmute himself 'cause I want him to clarify this. He asks, "Are there any guidelines sources for securing "the solar array connections, wiring, et cetera, "and any height recommendations for bottom, "for bottom of solar array if attempting to graze "dairy goats or Boer goats?" So, it's my understanding that, you know, dairy goats and Boer goats are, you know, they're at least, what, 36 inches at the shoulder? Thad, can you give us a little bit of background? - [Thad] No, they would, well, I don't know the exact height at the shoulder, but they're not that tall. - Okay. So, Katahdins and dorpes are probably, what, 24 inches out the shoulder, Sam? - I mean they're not terribly different from Boer goats. - Okay. - Depending on the dairy breed. I mean, Katahdins and a lot of other hair sheep are relatively small sheep. They're not likely to go past the, kind of past the knee/hip height of a, I mean, an average woman. - Yeah. So, Thad, I think that, you know, sheep typically don't look up. That's the nice thing. That's the, the nice thing about it, I think where goats have a different temperament. So I don't, I've never ran across a minimum height for goats just because of the prejudice, if you will, against goats in the solar industry. I'm sure it's out there somewhere, I just haven't ran across it. But I think the thing that you could do is just, you know, is that, four feet, four, you know, a good four feet, that bottom lip, you know, that might be a safe assumption. - [Thad] Thank you. Is there any resources out there that would make recommendations about securing any of the connections to prevent chewing and... Goats are very curious, they always want to put their mouth on everything. I wondered if there was resources on what to do for that to keep the panel safe and the animals safe. - Yeah. So all the wiring now, really, it's going in troughs, and it's above where a goat or a sheep are gonna, are gonna have access to it. They're, you know, in the back behind the solar arrays, they put all the wiring together and it's enclosed in a trough. So, I don't think that's, you know, as long as it, as long as the, as long as it's designed for goats and with the understanding that they're curious, I think they can design for that so that's not an issue. - [Samantha] If I can interject just a minute. If you, if you did happen to join ASGA, the American Solar Grazing Association, they have a forum, a discussion forum, and I'm pretty sure that there's been discussions on securing cables and just depending on what the system is, if it's not a modern system. So, I mean, that might be something to look at, look at joining. To read more. - Yeah. - Good point, good point. American Solar Grazing Association, highly, highly recommend that you go to their website, take a look, you can poke around in there, join the association. I'm a member of it. There's a tremendous body of educational material there. And, I mean, just about every question that someone can think of has been asked and somewhere in there there's, there's an answer to it. So, Thad, I think, I think Sam's right, you would be able to find the answer to your question at the American Solar Grazing Association website. - [Thad] Okay, very good, thank you very much. - Uh-huh. Okay. DC asks, "You mentioned tax benefits to townships. "What is a typical tax percentage?" It's gonna be whatever it is in that particular township. I don't know. I don't know what, what that percentage is. And it sounds kind of like an evasive answer, but I really have no idea. Because, you know, every township's a little different. All right, Clyde asked, "Does Heritage Renewable have sheep at their facilities?" I do not know the answer to that. But you and I can talk on offline a about that, I'm sure. We can find out. That's a solar project in Isabella County, or in your neck of the woods, I would imagine. And then Larry asks, "There is Critter Guard to protect against squirrels. "Would it work for goats?" Samantha, are you familiar with Critter Guard? - [Samantha] I don't know if I know it by that name. Are we talking about? Sorry, I was distracted by the kid. (Charles laughing) - I'm not familiar with it either. So I guess I'd have to, I guess, I'd to Google it to find out. - [Samantha] We're talking about the spray? - I'll tell you what, let's, if this is the Larry Dyer that used to work for Extension, let's, I know him, so let's give him access here. Larry, you got access here. - [Larry] Yeah, no, there's for, especially for residential applications, there's just stuff that, that covers the wires to keep squirrels-- - Okay. - [Larry] From chewing on it. So, I'm just wondering if that would be, I haven't looked at it closely enough to think if it's substantial enough to, or, you know, just to discourage goats, but at least there's something out there for rodents that might, might help. (Charles laughing) - Okay, well it's something to check out. I do know that... the troughs that the solar industry uses now are a pretty heavy gauge metal. I don't, a goat wouldn't be able to chew through it. What they're currently using. Okay, Clyde, you ask, if I'm in contact with a gentleman, Frank Crossall, and the answer is no. Okay, we've worked our way through the questions here. Is there any other questions? Please fill out the survey. The survey's in the chat box. If you would, please, that's really important to us. We take your evaluation seriously and we'll use that to improve presentations in the future. Any other questions? - [Woman] Hey Charles, this is not-- - Yeah. - [Woman] Grazing, per se, but I was looking at the Handy Township ordinance that's pretty close to passing. They've had their public hearing and whatnot already. It has pretty vague language about what is a solar project and I worry that the solar panels that we're using to open and close our coop doors and other solar, you know, camera, security cameras, that kind of thing, could be objectionable to our neighbors. Especially when you have language that says that it will not reflect any beam of light onto the road and all of that kind of stuff. And, and I have some experience with neighbors that leads me to believe that if there's an ordinance like that, they might use it and does Right to Farm provide any protection for that kind of activity? - Yeah. Right to Farm does not. - [Woman] Didn't think so. - Yeah. PA 116, or solar projects on land enrolled in PA 116 are legal, if you will. - I think the Handy Township ordinance says that they're not allowed on PA 116 property. - That is incorrect. - [Woman] Okay, good to know. - Yeah, that is not true. If you go to the Farmland Preservation website, as part of the Michigan Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, they will be able to understand what PA 116, or they'll be able to read what solar projects, how solar projects could be implemented on PA 116 land. - [Woman] Thank you. - So, I would say, it sounds like the ordinance there has some errors in it. Glare is really not an issue anymore. When you stop and think about it, the solar modules are the, their purpose to absorb as much solar energy as possible and converted into electricity, and glare is the antithesis of that. - [Woman] Right. - So it's not in the best interest for a solar manufacturer, module manufacturer, to have glare. So it's not an issue anymore. If there's glare it's gonna come off of metal and, and that's really not-- - [Woman] Yeah. - It's just not an issue. - [Woman] Okay, thank you. - So, okay. Well. Let's see, I got one more question in the Q&A, here. Larry asks, "Is there a good place to look "for solar installers at this commercial scale?" No, there's not. I find out about them because of the circles that I run in and I try to feed them to grazers who are in the vicinity. But, you know, for example, Ranger Power has solar projects going, AES has solar projects going in. There are others whose names I don't recall right now that have solar projects. But I wish there was an easier way, and I don't know, I don't know how to quite do that short of going to the Michigan Public Service Commission and saying, "Hey, "how do I get a list of solar projects in the queue "so I can contact them and find out if they're interested "in having grazers come." And maybe that's an option, I don't know, I just haven't done it. All right. Yeah, and Clyde points out, Larry, look at Great Lakes Renewable Energy Association. That is, that is a good, that's a good source, I agree. You can go on to the, it's GLREA.org, and they have a list of businesses that are members of the Great Lakes Renewable Energy Association and you can, they've got contact information and everything, you could call them. Okay. Well, looks like our time is about up here. If there are no further questions, thanks, each of you, for participating in this and good luck in your endeavors in grazing sheep or goats in a solar project and if there's, if there's anything that I can do, please give me a call. And I wanted to also thank Matt and Samantha Craig for participating in this. Their insights are wonderful. Appreciate the, appreciate each one of them.